tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9093286514666765146.post4474792288321979716..comments2023-05-29T03:51:51.259-04:00Comments on A Pasta Sea: Post-Apostasy Correspondence Saga: My Exchanges with Church LeadersThe Apostatehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07849387032571497899noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9093286514666765146.post-30324149621682441922019-01-27T16:08:01.329-05:002019-01-27T16:08:01.329-05:00You were definitely giving the church and pastors ...You were definitely giving the church and pastors every opportunity there - that's more than I did when I left my church in 2014. I'm surprised your former church didn't try to do more official things to drag you through the mud. That seems to be a trend these days. <br /><br />For readers who are dealing with how to leave a church that is trying to flex their authoritarian muscles, the folks at the Wartburg Watch blog have a good letter template to use. <br /><br />http://thewartburgwatch.com/permpage-how-to-resign-from-a-church-whether-or-not-you-are-under-church-discipline/ <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9093286514666765146.post-51595294418155673512016-05-06T16:02:12.063-04:002016-05-06T16:02:12.063-04:00Thank you for writing this. All the other commenta...Thank you for writing this. All the other commentators have already said anything that I can possibly say, just better. Personally, I am still half out/half quiet about my unbelief, don't want to hurt my parents in their old age too much. But what I have found is that suddenly I see so many more people around me in the same boat, quietly ignoring religion and getting on with life. <br />Best regards.<br />Unbeliever, South Africa.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9093286514666765146.post-24516513459406260082016-04-27T19:46:01.237-04:002016-04-27T19:46:01.237-04:00I'm only about 20% in but I love the idea of t...I'm only about 20% in but I love the idea of this post and thanks for sharing as I know all of this personal information can be a tricky thing to plaster onto the Internet. <br /><br />One thing that made me audibly say "Yes!" Out loud while reading was the part where you commented about why you need to read another library's worth of theological books to finally "get it". If this message of salvation is so dire and important to everyone on the planet then why was it written in ancient languages that can be easily mistranslated (on purpose or accidentally) and misunderstood. <br /><br />I've always had a huge problem with this issue and it was a big one for me on my way out. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04471501597841930984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9093286514666765146.post-49096762286265788192016-03-03T08:03:11.017-05:002016-03-03T08:03:11.017-05:00"[Mrs. Apostate] and I can count on one hand ..."[Mrs. Apostate] and I can count on one hand the people we feel like we can have normal human contact and conversations with now."<br /><br />I made a very similar comment to someone the other day in relation to my own apostasy. The relationships we felt were close, stable and robust have turned out to be nothing more than paper-thin and utterly dependent on shared beliefs. Whilst I'm an apostate, my spouse is still holding on to a modicum of faith... but not in the church we were once so heavily involved.<br /><br />The desertion we feel from so many in that circle is very raw.<br /><br />I have been gripped by this entire post. Thank you for taking the time to write/compile it all for us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9093286514666765146.post-78878296733884361572016-02-27T18:59:39.496-05:002016-02-27T18:59:39.496-05:00This is an amazing, but deeply frustrating, story....This is an amazing, but deeply frustrating, story. <br /><br />The thing that stands out to me is how much they talked about loving you and how little they demonstrated it. They used the words, over and over again, but never seem to have acted upon it. <br /><br />More to the point, as much as they talked about love and compassion, they never demonstrated the slightest bit of empathy. There was no attempt to understand you, to understand your beliefs, or to understand your journey. <br /><br />When you offered to listen to them, they tried to pressure you. When you offered to help them understand, they immediately ducked out. <br /><br />While reading this, I went back and forth on what to think about the pastor(s). <br /><br />They were painfully manipulative, cowardly and disingenuous. When they promised not to disclose your news and then promptly began disclosing it, they just outright lied. The irony of criticizing your moral system after showing so little integrity is just astounding. They should be down on their knees begging your forgiveness for that.<br /><br />The manipulative rhetoric, behind-the-back behavior and transparent in-it-for-us-not-for-you ulterior motives were unbecoming of an adult, much less adults in positions of ministerial care. <br /><br />But ultimately, I felt a little sorry for them. Whatever their own flaws, I think it's important to remember that they are also prisoners of their own upbringing. It is difficult to be honest with other people when you have been dishonest with yourself. <br /><br />You have been in their position and your position. That makes it a lot easier to empathize with their beliefs and reactions. They don't appear capable of understanding where you are coming from, or even with the possibility that you are coming from a place that they should try to understand. <br /><br />You were a project, not a person. <br /><br />Hopefully, they can escape their own prison one day, at least a little bit. A little empathy can do wonders. Jonhttps://twitter.com/jonhenkenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9093286514666765146.post-156623421925486782016-02-25T16:40:45.699-05:002016-02-25T16:40:45.699-05:00I had the same thoughts regarding the Exodus lette...I had the same thoughts regarding the Exodus letter. All I could think was how much it made me want The Apostate to continue his series again so that we'd eventually get into Exodus.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02379960499231611131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9093286514666765146.post-10541282702515076792016-02-25T12:12:42.769-05:002016-02-25T12:12:42.769-05:00Welcome back and what a great read this was. I was...Welcome back and what a great read this was. I was thinking I'd break it into a couple of evenings, but once I started only reaching the ending could stop me. I like how the email about Exodus is basically a 'Mistakes of Moses' blog posting in the future tense. It's just incredible how little of substance your pastor (and elders) manage to say. It reads to me like they only wanted to cut and run as soon as possible, the better to structure and embrace their new narrative around how you were possessed or whatever and only God can help you now. They come across as quite pathetic, to be honest, the poor dears. Whereas you shine throughout as the voice of reason. A fantastic read. I look forward to more. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04610329975697581047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9093286514666765146.post-20954590542676883432016-02-25T09:52:51.886-05:002016-02-25T09:52:51.886-05:00This was quite an incredible story. I'm awed t...This was quite an incredible story. I'm awed that you took so much time to communicate with your pastor and others at your church, and that you spend a seemingly obscene amount of time actually providing substantive arguments... and actually reading and responding to the materials he sent to you! No one can say you didn't do everything in your power to make it clear exactly why you and your wife were leaving. My own paltry letter to my pastor requesting my removal of membership pales in comparison to this.<br /><br />I'm sure at the time it wasn't easy however, and probably still isn't. I imagine reading over it again and organizing it all for this post probably opened up some old wounds. For being willing to do that for our sake, I just want to say thanks. Your blog has been a fantastic resource for me, and I've taken a lot of great information and encouragement from reading your analysis, takes, and experiences. I really hope you'll return to regular blogging, because you've certainly earned a loyal reader here!Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02379960499231611131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9093286514666765146.post-3284811670788567952016-02-18T20:03:06.324-05:002016-02-18T20:03:06.324-05:00Thanks for sharing your story with us. It's in...Thanks for sharing your story with us. It's interesting that it came on the day when I was writing the first draft of my own letter withdrawing from membership from my (very Calvinist/Reformed Baptist) church. Our church cross-pollinates with PCA churches and leaders, and has been beefing up its documents and practices a la Dever and 9 Marks (though not to his extreme), so your story resonates with me.<br /><br />Last September I came out to my wife, kids, extended family, and church acquaintances as a non-believer. I was actually expecting a similar reaction to the one you got; our church covenant has a clause (added within the last 5 years or so) that basically says you agree to be under church discipline and don't have the right to withdraw if you've strayed into sin. I doubt that's legally enforceable, but I expected them to try.<br /><br />Fortunately so far the reaction has been pretty mild. I told family in person first (starting with my wife, who's still a Christian), and then sent an email to a wider circle. A dozenr so pastors, elders, and others have wanted to meet with me to hear my story, and those meetings have been pretty cordial, but none of them have requested a second meeting, or sent any additional emails. I conclude that they don't really want to know what my beliefs are; I suspect there was a combination of obligation to respond and curiosity that motivated the first and only meeting.<br /><br />I told two of the pastors to expect my formal letter, and they agreed with me that given my current beliefs, I can't really continue as a covenant member. But there's been no sign that they will put me under discpline; I seem to have found a receptive ear when I explain that belief is not a choice. My wife understood this immediately, which was a big relief.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9093286514666765146.post-14527516580145417052016-02-18T10:45:39.366-05:002016-02-18T10:45:39.366-05:00As an apostate myself, I'm just so done with t...As an apostate myself, I'm just so done with the kind of emotional manipulation/abuse and guilt-tripping they used on you and your wife. Thanks for sharing the Epic of A Pasta Sea. I really enjoyed seeing another post from you after such a long while!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com